NHL Rumor Mill – August 7, 2019

by | Aug 7, 2019 | Rumors | 66 comments

Updates on Mitch Marner, Charlie McAvoy, Brandon Carlo, and more in today’s NHL rumor mill.

LEAFS OFFER MARNER BETWEEN $9 – $11 MILLION PER SEASON

TSN: cites a recent report by The Athletic’s James Mirtle claiming the Toronto Maple Leafs offered Mitch Marcher between $9 million to roughly $11 million per season depending on the term. The club discussed three, six and seven-year deals with the Marner camp, who are reportedly uninterested in a maximum eight-year deal.

The Toronto Maple Leafs are said to have offered Mitch Marner between $9 and $11 million per season (Photo via NHL Images).

It’s believed Marner’s reps sought a deal comparable to teammate Auston Matthews’ five-year contract ($11.6 million annual average value). Leafs general manager Kyle Dubas recently said there was nothing new to report regarding negotiations with Marner but remained confident and optimistic.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: The breakdowns for each contract was probably $11 million per season for seven years, somewhere around $10 million AAV for six years, and $9 million annually for three. My guess is the Marner camp will keep pushing for five years at close to $11 million AAV.

WILL MCAVOY AND CARLO RE-SIGN WITH BRUINS BEFORE TRAINING CAMP?

NHL.COM: Jone Lane wondered if the Boston Bruins can get restricted free agent defensemen Charlie McAvoy and Brandon Carlo re-signed before training camp opens next month. He cited Bruins president Cam Neely recently telling NBC Sports the club has to plan and prepare for the possibility both might not report to camp on opening day.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: Cap Friendly indicates the Bruins have over $7.2 million in salary-cap space. Unless they can get both blueliners to accept affordable short-term bridge deals, management could be forced to a salaried player to make room for their new contracts. Defenseman Kevan Miller and forwards David Backes and Charlie Coyle have surfaced in the rumor mill as possible trade candidates.

UPDATES ON THE CAPITALS AND STARS

NBC SPORTS WASHINGTON: In a recent mailbag segment, J.J. Regan was asked how the Capitals intend to become salary-cap compliant before the start of the season. They currently sit over $1.3 million about the $81.5-million cap. He doesn’t rule out trading defenseman Christian Djoos ($1.25 million) but doubts they’ll go that route because they’ll get next to nothing in return. Regan instead thinks they’ll demote Chandler Stephenson ($1.05 million), as his salary for next season “comes just under the maximum cap relief cutoff for players in the AHL.”

THE ATHLETIC: In a recent mailbag segment, Sean Shapiro believes the Dallas Stars are still waiting for the best offer for defenseman Julius Honka. He thinks a fourth-round pick is a realistic return. However, clubs that could have interest in Honka might prefer to wait and see if they can pick him up off the waiver wire in October.







66 Comments

  1. Why can’t Backes be bought ? Is the math $3m over 4 yrs m ? Saves the Bruins enough to get their defence completed and 10m to play with.. Then deal with trade-able assets during the season like Miller .
    I would keep Coyle. A good fit in that lineup

    • The Bruins didn’t have any cases go to arbitration so they don’t have a second buy-out window.

      • I think Mitch Marner better step up and be a man
        Fire his agent who has lost Mitch a lot of fans
        Fans would like to have him as a Leaf but they are getting less concerned whether he stays or not. Like it or not hockey is a business and since when do players tell the team what they want. Leafs are your boss not a toy to play with. Like it or not.
        Either sign or trade we fans are fed up.

        Ya can’t use the agent excuse no more

      • And he should give exactly how many rats rear ends that the fans are fed up?

      • That had me wondering the same thing! In other words, he’s obliged to go grovelling to Dubas and sign for less than he believes he’s worth after leading the team twice in scoring, because the fans are upset! Jaysus!

      • “I think Mitch Marner better step up and be a man” followed by all the reasons Marner should cow-tow to all of these “fans” who don’t know him, don’t care about him, and only care about getting him signed below market value.

        If your definition of what it means to be a man is to not stand up for yourself, and make sure you please everyone, you may want to reconsider some things.

    • If Backes had of been bought out his cap hit for this season according to capfriendly would’ve been $5,666,667 a savings of $333,333 and next season savings would’ve been $2,333,333 considering he only has two seasons left on his contract the savings this season doesn’t make sense to buy him out.

      • Sometimes players are offered more money to take a lesser term.

    • I’d like to see some offer sheet Marner for 12 mill then the leafs let him walk and get four pick then offer sheet tkachuk what a great fit tuff and gritty and can score 👍🏼

  2. Hi Lyle,

    My gut reaction for Marner would be that the larger amounts were for the longer terms.

    Why reward a 3 year, essentially a bridge, contract with $11 million, With that becoming your nego starting point in 4 years time?

    • Yeah, the numbers don’t make any sense as written, I think they need to be flipped.

      • And they have been. Sorry for the confusion.

    • @rattus: If U read the article currently posted on TSN, one component of it implies the Leafs offered a 3 Year $10 million contract.

      The Athletic is a pay to play website so I have the believe whatever info they got is credible as TML has learned to keep news out of whispering ears until they decide its time to say

      • I don’t really read TSN so I cannot comment, but it still makes little sense.

        The major problem seems to be fitting Marner under the Toronto Cap, and $11 million is an issue.

        If I’m management and I’m going to go through all the roster problems that $11 million for Marner is going to engender, I’m certainly going to want term so that I don’t have to go through it again soon.

        What I would want to give is a smaller $# for a shorter term, clear my current Cap issues and make a run for the Cup.

        With the promise that we’ll
        make it up to Marner on the next deal.

        I get that’s not Marner’s goal.
        It’s a nego.

        $11 million for 3 years makes no sense for the team, imo, and runs directly counter to the usual term/dollar tradeoff.

        Was it Dreger on TSN, by any chance?

      • You have to pay to read the NY Times now and they’re not credible!

      • All the news that’s fit to slant!

      • Really JT, you are going to call the NY Times, of all the news sources out there, not credible?
        I guess high journalistic standards since 1851 doesn’t count for anything in todays upside down culture.
        Wow, simply wow.
        And yes I do subscribe.

      • Matt Barber is your go to on slanting the news George?
        Matt Barber?
        I felt the need to respond when a news institution that actually employs fact checkers and has upheld journalistic standards (multiple sources and corroborating evidence) for more than 150 years is shot down as not credible.
        If you are talking about opinion columnists, then yes more left than right but they do employ both.
        We shouldn’t be talking about this on this site.
        My bad for responding I guess.

    • Yeah, I hear frequently about “paying for UFA years”, so I would assume the same. Shorter deals for lower money, the longer the deal goes the more he gets per year.

  3. Mcavoy deserves around 6.5 million and Carlo around 4.5.
    They are probably looking for more but Boston doesn’t pay out big contracts. Possibility one could be moved if looking for too much.
    To get both signed someone has to go. Moore and Miller could open season on injury reserve so it might work until they return. Should be interesting to see if they are signed.

  4. McAvoy and Carlo can be Boston top pairing dman for the next decade, I have to believe a deal will get done but patients are required. Like all the rfa’s they haven’t received an offer that makes them want to sign on the dotted line and its early August so no pressure yet.

    • “Patients are required”….does Boston need a player or two to come down with a mysterious illness or back injury and be placed on LTIR?

  5. Marner has every right to ask for Matthews money and contract and Dubas has every right to say no.
    The difference for me when discussing Marner over the other RFA’s is Marner has immediate comparable on his own team in Matthews that his GM gave him that contract. Rantanen isn’t going to use McKinnon contract as a comparable while dealing with Sakic, nor Laine or Connor using Scheifele when dealing with Cheveldayoff so in that sense I feel that Marner situation is unique compared to the other RFA’s as Dubas is the one who changed the landscape of the rfa signings.

    • Marner is a winger….mathews is a Centre. .they are not comparable…..playing Centre much tougher position….

      • Gordie Howe was a winger too. So was Rocket Richard and Ted Lindsay. And a host of others. Time to drop that bulls*&t.

    • The highest paid Boston Bruin period is Krejci at 7,250,000. Marchand the Bruins leading scorer, makes less than 7 million and scored 100 points last year. The question is Mitch, how can you play in the Stanley finals from in front of your TV at home? Your comparable is a Winger not a Centre, and Dubas has every right to decide how much the Leafs are willing to pay a Winger, leading scorer or not. And Mitch has had all season to negotiate, but chose not too. I would rather see my team compete for the Stanley Cup than be able to boast it has the highest paid Winger in the NHL. Highest paid Leaf Winger? Fine. Would be fun to see him and his daddy and his agent miss the season.

  6. Cheveldayoff who took a hard line with Kane and Trouba in the pass with his negotiations will be interesting to watch as he deal with two very important pieces of his puzzle, with all the changes in Winnipeg losing (Trouba, Myers, Chairot, and Tanev ) this isn’t a team that can start their season with two of their top 6 forwards sitting out for any length of time.

  7. Lloyd on August 7, 2019 at 10:27 am

    Are you serious?? Marners agent is to get him the best contract he can get, not to get him fans. Marners play gets him his fans and it seems like the Leaf fans love him.

    You are crying because Marner wants a better contract. Why shouldnt he get a better contract? He is a top foward in the league!! I would have paid him the 11.6 mil instead of what the Rangers gave Panarin any day of the week!! Athletes are drafted and told where to play and have no say in the matter. Finally they get a little leverage and fans cry out.

    We live in a Cap league now. If we werent in a Cap league would you be whinning that he wanted more money?? No cause they would have just paid him. Dubas went out and signed JT, the Leafs didnt need JT, they need a top defense man. The Leafs knew Marner and Nylander were going to need contracts yet they went out and signed JT. Just like the Rangers who signed Panarin and pushed them to Cap hell!! If the Leafs didnt sign JT they would have had cap space to sign Marner. Bad management of the Cap.

    Now since you are preaching about employees taking less money, you should go into your bosses office and demand he cut your salary by at least 10 percent or more to help your company. If not, stop being a hypocrite and bashing the player who is an employees for wanting more money.

    • Does Marner get 90 plus points with Nazem Kadri or Tyler Bozak as his centreman? I doubt it. And yes, JT does better with him. So do short term so you have a decent team to play on and hit the home run when it makes sense for everyone. Tired of hearing players whine, I want the Stanley Cup, and then insist on being paid more than the highest paid players in the League, who actually have won a Stanley Cup. Check out the last 3 years for teams that won the Cup. Nobody over 10 million. The best players on those teams understood and understand you need room for everybody. If he does not like it, maybe he would enjoy another team that is years away from being close to contending. Being the leading scorer as a Winger means nothing if your team does not get out of the playoffs because your salary demands do not allow the team to add where it needs or needed ie DEFENCE.

      • “Check out the last 3 years for teams that won the Cup. Nobody over 10 million.”

        So, if that holds up. it doesn’t bode well for the Leafs with Matthews hauling in $11,634,000 and Tavares $11,000,000.

        Guess they might as well mail in the season.

      • does anything good come out of some ones mouth i can’t wait till the sens have to start ponying up for their players chabot 12 million

      • Neither can I. But then as far as I can tell, the Sens weren’t part of today’s topic. When they are we’ll discuss that for sure. All I was doing above was responding to Murph’s contention that ” Check out the last 3 years for teams that won the Cup. Nobody over 10 million. ..” The Leafs have two and, before all this is over, likely 3. Do the math.

      • hey isn’t time for your dumb cap friendly page we are so intrigued by it

      • Nah. Look it up yourself.

  8. This is the way things work LLoyd. I don’t necessarily disagree with you but the owners have backed themselves into a corner that the players keep taking advantage of. Can’t blame them really. As I stated on here yesterday he will sign! He will not be traded as the Leafs are definitely better with him than without. If Dubas feels the blueline needs even more work it will come at the expense of Johnsson or Kapanen. Having said that I would not shy away from the right trade for Marner. You could get two top quality players to split his contract. The Leafs are doing the LTIR thing with Marner in lieu of Clarkson and Horton. They could trade Marner for two pieces; a top quality D and another forward, who could easily count against the LTIR scenario with Clarkson and Horton as easily as Marner could.

    • Steven: I’m not sure how much you’ve followed trades the last few years, but Marner wouldn’t net a top quality D and another forward unless you consider a top quality D an overpaid 3-4D. Teams don’t trade top pairing defensemen unless they have no choice (ex. Ottawa with Karlsson). Wingers are less valuable than 1C’s or top pairing defensemen in the current trade market. As an example, I wouldn’t trade Seth Jones and his current contract straight up for Marner let alone add another forward to the mix.

      Marner is a fantastic winger, but isn’t worth as much as Matthews IMO. I don’t get why everyone thinks Marner brought Tavares’ numbers up but don’t feel Tavares benefitted Marner in any way. Matthews is somewhat injury prone, but you can’t argue with his offensive production despite having lesser quality players to play with than Marner.

      Further, why is Pointe only worth US$8M/year but Marner is worth US$11M+? Rantanen is worth at least as much as Marner too, but US$11M is never mentioned when talking about his next contract.

      • And why did Aho, also a center, only get 8.45 per year? Marner has more career points, while Aho leads him in goals. Marner has played 1 less game in his career. Their stat lines are nearly identical while you can argue Marner benefits point wise by having more talent around him.

  9. I think in the end the Nylander contract with that term at 6.9 million is what he is worth should he regain his form and realize his potential.

    The Matthews contract at 11.6 would be good if they signed him for 8 years not set everyone up for him going to unrestricted free agency. It also set Marner’s camp up to make the comparable in house rather than with other RFAs.

    That being said, he is still an RFA. Unless there’s a team out there that will sign him to an offer sheet, he can sit with his father and agent in front of a television set to watch the games like the rest of us.

    There should be no issue matching or exceeding Matthews money but the term needs to be 7 minimum, 8 preferable.

    My view is that you are getting a franchise player who will match or exceed what he is producing now. An 8 year term gets you the best years of his career. Matthews is going to want a lot more than 11.6 when that contract is up. So paying Marner the same for the 5 years and 400,000-900,000 more per year over the max term makes sense because you are buying 3 years of UFA where he could demand and get much more than that.

    So making Marner the highest paid Leaf at 11.5-12.5 over 8 years makes sense.

    Playing hardball to give Marner that much money over that much term is worth it. Anything less than this does not benefit the Leafs.

  10. MY God Marner is overrated on this site….and someone up above thinks Carlo will go long term at 4.5 million….when others think Marner will get 11.5.to 12.5…think about the comparison in value for money in those 2 options….

    Dubas should have what he thinks is fair to Marner and the team….make the offer and thereafter stand your ground….should have done it last year with Nylander…but didn’t……

    If the Matthews contract was bad ( and this Leaf fan thinks it was) a second bad contract will only make the total situation worse…

    Kyle you are better off with on one than with Marner over 9 million (this Leaf fan thinks.)…get on with building a team without him

    Let him sit a year….why has no one offered him what he is asking from the Leafs…Kyle the rumour you want out there is not what you have offered but that you have had trade talks with Carolina, Arizona Florida, or any other place where they don’t make money outside of hockey….

    Don’t do what you did last year flying to Europe almost begging for a meeting with Nylander…..don’t give the ship away the way you did with Matthews….

    As the song says….find a place to make your stand and take it easy….Marner, his father and his agent have no power….don’t give them any

    • Odd to have that stance with Marner and not Nylander when Marner has more points than Nylander to date.

      Nyaldner being signed for what he was is what threw a wrench into not being able to sign Marner (along with the Marleau contract).

      Marner EARNED term and dollars comparable to Matthews.

      • I agree that Matthews contract was bigger than necessary. McDavid signed long term, if Matthews got that money it should have been for 8 years, not 5.

        I think some posters under appreciate the power that the team has, if Marner does not sign with the Leafs he’s sitting out a year. If he signs an offer sheet, the Leafs match or walk away with 4 first round picks. Sitting out a year as a professional at this stage of development is a huge risk.
        Would you rather sign a one year KHL league at 4M or sign one of the Leafs’ offer. What if you get hurt playing in Europe?
        Too late now but the Leafs should have let Nylander sit out the year, but by the same token they didn’t want to waste a year of his development.

      • I had that stance with Nylander. I thought Nylander holding out was a gift to Dubas as it was a great opportunity for him to add what he does not have….some gravitas….instead he shelped off to Europe and became even a lighter weight than he was before. Time for him to take off the Harry Potter glasses, grow a pair, and demonstrate he has power.

        If senior Leaf management believes in hindsight that the Matthews contract is a bad one ( as I do ) it totally illogical to let it be the comparison from this point forward. You will compound your error every time you sign a new contract.

      • More power than you think. Now Toronto does not have to worry about not filling the seats if they lose star power… that’s also in the leafs corner. But the 50 plus years is hanging over their head and Marner dramatically increases the chances of changing that. If the leafs don’t come out the gate strong pressure will be on the leafs management

      • If Nylander puts up Pastrnak numbers (which he could after with full training camp and playing on Matthews wing not Kadri…) then his contract is within reason. At least Nylanders comparables were closer than what Marners camp is using. Marner has earned the right to be paid as one of the top Wingers in the League, but not more than the top Centres in the League. Especially when two of the top centres in the League are on your team. Its why your team finished so high…unlike other teams with one Top Centre.

      • ANYONE… Here anything on Jake Gardiner and where he may end up? His story has gone quiet? Is his back a real issue or no ???

      • I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that, if I do, the dorks come out of the woodwork/ LOL 🙂

      • Murph you said they finished so high? They were 4 points from missing the playoffs and got knocked out in the first round! Where is this finishing high!

    • OBD, Everyone has been pushing for Marner to get 11.5 million since January.
      Most people on this site are leaf haters which is fine. That just proves they are headed in the right direction.
      Toronto is the center of hockey as proved by all the agents waiting for the Leafs to decide what everyone is worth.
      When they do get it done it will be the Leafs fault. I hope they set it high. Leafs have proven they know how to move money and players around to make it happen.
      McAvoy 10 million, Carlo 6.5.
      Next year Chabot 12 million, Tkachuk 10 or 11.
      The Leafs can play the game can anyone else.

      • This is a weird statement… you have to be relevant to fans of other teams to elicit hate. To be relevant you have to be problematic to the teams they cheer for. For a Pittsburgh fan, the leafs are as insignificant as most other teams… same class as Arizona, Florida, buffalo…

        Who hates the leafs? Boston? Leafs are to the bruins like the browns are to the stillers. Mont? Maybe some Canadian jealousy thing.

        Who can actually drum up enough emotion regarding the leafs to hate them?

  11. “That being said, he is still an RFA. Unless there’s a team out there that will sign him to an offer sheet, he can sit with his father and agent in front of a television set to watch the games like the rest of us.

    There should be no issue matching or exceeding Matthews money but the term needs to be 7 minimum, 8 preferable.

    My view is that you are getting a franchise player who will match or exceed what he is producing now. An 8 year term gets you the best years of his career. Matthews is going to want a lot more than 11.6 when that contract is up. So paying Marner the same for the 5 years and 400,000-900,000 more per year over the max term makes sense because you are buying 3 years of UFA where he could demand and get much more than that.

    So making Marner the highest paid Leaf at 11.5-12.5 over 8 years makes sense.

    Yes that is what Marner is going to do, wait things out.

    Yes everything you said is so true, getting the franchise player, blah blah blah, in 8 yrs he will be underpaid, which is great for the Leafs bad for Marner, He knows this thus why he is holding out.

    History has shown when a player misses extended time, the player rarely meets is past performance, case in point Nylander. If the Leafs were smart get him under contract before camp so his performance isnt affected this year or trade him. Otherwise it could be a disappointing year for him which will be a wasted year off his contract .

  12. Marner has more assists on Toronto then anyone else and its not even close. A good majority of those assists are the first assist. Guy doesn’t have the injury issues that Matthews has had, is a top 20 scorer in the league, and the Leafs best set up man. Its not Marner, his dad, his agent, or anyone else’s fault that The front office has made bad move after bad move with their trades and signing’s. Marner expecting the same contract or slightly less then AM is more then reasonable.

    • Marner reminds me of the next Patrick Kane.

      You don’t lowball him and expect a happy camper for 8 years. lol Fair market value was set by TML themselves with the Matthew contract. 5 for 11.

      • Where is JJ when you need him?

  13. If Dubas bows to the 5 year Marner camp demand, I honestly doubt he’s still the GM when all three of Matthews, Marner and Nylander’s contracts are all up – in the same year! (hurl)

    Anything but 5 years, and ideally not a brutally cringeworthy AAV.

    • “If Dubas bows to the 5 year Marner camp demand, I honestly doubt he’s still the GM when all three of Matthews, Marner and Nylander’s contracts are all up – in the same year! (hurl) ”

      I agree with you totally about the 5 yrs but the players arent stupid, they know what they are worth, You have 3 of a possible top 10 or maybe 15 players in the league, the window always closes, you build around it and go for it. I would have loved to have been a Leaf fan now. I would have hated the JT signing knowing they need a top D man. Im a Ranger fan hating the Panarin signing, such is life.

      • Understood. My hope is that (if) Marner’s camp is claiming 8yrs is a non starter, MLSE feeling the same about 5yrs is also reasonable.

        Marner will do tremendously well regardless, with a bit of luck it’ll be sorted soon. Ideally another RFA or two signs, so the ‘waiting on TOR/Marner’ narrative ends soon.

  14. Marner is a play maker.
    Laine is a sniper.
    Tkachuk is a power forward. Which one would you want on your team? Who should be the highest paid and who the lowest out of the three?

  15. Ok just reading through all theses now

    Great points either side

    I’ll throw my 2 cents in at the expense of being lambasted

    Transparency …. I’m a Leaf and Pens fan …. I grew up in; and still live in the GTA

    I crave a cup in my home town

    I’ve waited 52 years and have fond memories of sitting on my dad’s lap watching the ‘67 Cup

    So with that bias upfront I have to look at this from a pure business perspective

    When one of my Director’s or even VP comes to negotiate a new contract ; it’s not an easy and quick exchange. I have to evaluate them and what they ask for …. I can’t give them the moon and of course would hate to lose them

    As an owner I have to be prepared to (and have in the past) give my best offer , knowing they just might move on …, it has happened. ☹️

    I don’t challenge their right to ask for what they truly believe is fair

    If he feels the offer is not right; then he shouldn’t sign

    To me; the problem was with WW pushing the envelope and pushing his negotiations to the wire and getting more than he’s worth

    It certainly won’t be fair to MM if he’s forced into a 6 year deal just because the other two are ending their contracts at that time

    My gut … if it is in the 9-10-11 for 3,6, and 7 years… he’ll sign for AM numbers but for 1 extra year (6)

    If GMKD had forced WW to sit the full year; Leafs would not have done any worse in 18/19
    but AN’s contract would not IMHO have come in at 5 @ $11.6

    🤞🙏

    • So I guess the sky is still falling in Toronto.
      That should make George and his two flunkies happy. Chrisms and Double Minor for those who are wondering.
      Everyone is just waiting on pins and needles hoping they can blame the Leafs.
      Sorry to tell ya the SHANAPLAN is going to work.
      Chrisms and Double Minor ask George what he thinks so you can form an opinion between the 3 of you

  16. From all that I read and heard, Dubas absolutely does not want a 5 year deal….Marner, Matthews, Nylander and possibly a few others all coming due for potentially their biggest pay-days at the same time.
    Thus with Marner, I imagine that the cheapest offer would be for the 5 year option.
    The article (I don’t think) says whether this was leaked by Dubas or Marner’s agent…that could be a key piece of info as the motives associated with those numbers could be very different depending on the source.
    I could see Marner’s agent wanting to hurry things along, just in case Brayden Point were to sign for $9 Million or less. No way would Marner get an extra $2 million per year over Point.

  17. George, you really can’t use Maurice Richard as a comparable he set alot of his records when alot of NHL players were serving in the 2nd world war. The league wasn’t as good.

    • You can’t say that the players were equal than and the players were equal now! Competition was the same just marner and the rocket were better at their times

    • The war was over after his 4th season and he had plenty of success after that. You are right though in saying that Maurice Richard shouldn’t be a comparable for Marner. Or are you seriously suggesting that this kid is the cornerstone of the NHL and it’s most dominant player?

  18. Marner didn’t do anything in playoffs, his team lost and he had 4 points in 7 games. Not worth 11 million. Selfish

  19. Trade Marner now..I have said it before and get abuse for it but he is not the driver of the Leafs, for several reasons, despite his individual skills..he is a defensive sieve, his fancy dan stuff gets denied in a rough playoff and he overrates his value compared to Point, Tkachuk (I would take Matthew straight up for Marner: bet Calgary would not do that!) and the way he has operated has been damaging in the wake of the Nylander fiasco. Easy to tell one contributor that he should go to his boss to volunteer to take lower salary but to get real we are talking about millions of dollars for a 22 year old! Yes, maybe it is a short career but he will earn 100 millions before he is 32 if all goes well…when is enough enough?