NHL Rumor Mill – March 17, 2022

by | Mar 17, 2022 | Rumors | 76 comments

Check out the latest on Claude Giroux, Christian Dvorak, Max Domi, Marc-Andre Fleury, Alexander Radulov. Semyon Varlamov and many more in today’s NHL rumor mill.


SPORTSNET: Elliotte Friedman reports the Colorado Avalanche are interested in Philadelphia Flyers captain Claude Giroux, “but there’s a preference for the Panthers, although it doesn’t look like anything is close”. The Flyers haven’t been impressed with offers thus far but it’s expected the real negotiations start following Giroux’s 1,000th game tonight. The 34-year-old forward controls this process.

Philadelphia Flyers captain Claude Giroux (NHL Images).

SPECTOR’S NOTE: I’m not sure if Friedman is referring to the Panthers as Giroux’s or the Flyers’ preference. Regardless, I’m not surprised that he hasn’t been moved yet. He and the Flyers wanted to have him reach his 1,000th game as a Flyer. He could be moved over the weekend.

Friedman also addressed rumors suggesting the Flyers might shop Travis Sanheim after re-signing defenseman Rasmus Ristolainen last week. He noted the two played together so it would make sense to keep them. He also wondered what the Flyers will do with talented rearguard Ivan Provorov given his struggles this season.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: I’d be more shocked if the Flyers move Provorov than I would if they move Sanheim. While general manager Chuck Fletcher will consider his options, I think he’ll keep those two defensemen.

TVA SPORTS: As Montreal Canadiens center Christian Dvorak returns from injury, Renaud Lavoie believes the club’s goal is to trade him. He considers the 26-year-old Dvorak more of a Western Conference player. Lavoie said several teams were interested in Dvorak, including the Minnesota Wild, but it remains to be seen if they’re willing to compromise to get him.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: Elliotte Friedman said he’d heard the Wild had a prior interest in Dvorak but they can’t fit him into their lineup now. The Wild will be facing a salary-cap crunch after this season. Dvorak’s signed through 2024-25 with an annual cap hit of $4.45 million.


SPORTSNET: Elliotte Friedman reports Toronto Maple Leafs general manager Kyle Dubas doesn’t want to part with any of his top prospects or his first-round pick for a rental player. Anaheim Ducks defenseman Hampus Lindholm is their top target but they’ve also looked at the Seattle Kraken’s Mark Giordano, the Flyers’ Justin Braun, the Dallas Stars’ John Klingberg, and the San Jose Shark’s Jacob Middleton.

The Leafs have been shopping Travis Dermott and Justin Holl for months. Friedman wouldn’t be surprised if Dermott gets a fresh start elsewhere. He also makes a “completely insane prediction” of the Leafs acquiring New York Islanders blueliner Zdeno Chara.

If the Leafs decide to pursue Chicago Blackhawks goaltender Marc-Andre Fleury it’ll come down to whether Fleury believes he can win in Toronto. Friedman also dismissed the possibility of the Leafs acquiring John Gibson from the Ducks.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: It’s going to cost the Leafs a top prospect and/or a first-round pick as part of the return for Lindholm, Giordano and Klingberg, though the latter isn’t going anywhere with teammate Miro Heiskanen sidelined by mononucleosis. Those guys are all slated to become unrestricted free agents this summer. I also don’t see Chara agreeing to a trade to the Leafs.

Fleury’s situation is so muddied we don’t know if he’s staying or going. At this point, I’ll be surprised if there’s a deal that will work well enough for the Blackhawks to approach him about it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Leafs end up sticking with the goalies they already have and hope for the best.

Columbus Blue Jackets forward Max Domi could be on the radar of the Washington Capitals while Jeff Marek suggested the Boston Bruins and Colorado Avalanche as possible destinations. Marek also suggested Jackets defenseman Dean Kukan as a fit with the Edmonton Oilers but Friedman doubts that’ll happen.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: Washington Hockey Now’s Sammi Silber believes Domi could be a good fit in Washington. However, his $5.3 million cap hit makes him an expensive rental for the cap-strapped Capitals.


SPORTSNET: Elliotte Friedman repeated his earlier reports suggesting the Canadiens were among the teams interested in New Jersey Devils forward Pavel Zacha, as well as contract extension talks continuing between the Nashville Predators and Filip Forsberg.

The New York Rangers have shown interest in Dallas Stars winger Alexander Radulov.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: But are the Stars willing to move him? They’re not believed to be in sell mode as they jockey for a wild-card berth in the Western Conference. Radulov also might not be the best fit for the Rangers. The 35-year-old winger has been hampered by injuries in recent years and his production is down this season with just 18 points in 52 games.

Two sources expressed doubt to Friedman that New York Islanders goalie Semyon Varlamov will be going anywhere by the trade deadline. Isles forward Cal Clutterbuck’s name has come up in the rumor mill quite a bit of late.

The Boston Bruins, Carolina Hurricanes, Los Angeles Kings, New York Rangers, St. Louis Blues and Toronto Maple Leafs remain in the market for a left-side defenseman.

Keep an eye on the St. Louis Blues. Friedman expects they’ll be busy in the trade market. They were interested Ben Chiarot before he was traded to the Panthers and are linked to the Arizona Coyotes’ Jakob Chychrun.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: The Blues are pressed for cap space so it might have to be a dollar-in, dollar-out move, or a three-team trade to spread the cap hit around if they intend to add a notable defenseman.

The Capitals continue to monitor the goalie market.

Winnipeg Jets forward Andrew Copp has been linked to the Colorado Avalanche and Boston Bruins.

There’s not much movement in contract talks between the Ottawa Senators and pending UFA forward Nick Paul.


  1. With Giroux. Supposed 2 top landing spots AVs. Or Cats

    What would be the return as it would have to be more then what’s been given out so far cats have no 1sts next 2 years
    Avs no 1st this yr. So next yrs 1st plus Brian and what? Or does Giroux do what Hall did last year sat only going here ?

    • How about speaking in English.

      • Me bad. With top 2 spots for Giroux. Being cats or avs What would be the return from cats as they have no 1st picks next 2 years. Avs. None this year Don’t see what cats can offer to make a deal Avs could do next yrs 1st plus Byram Bowen plus something else

      • I expect it will look similar to the hall deal in value. If two teams are allowed to bid slightly better but not much so

  2. “There’s not much movement in contract talks between the Ottawa Senators and pending UFA forward Nick Paul”

    Then deal him at the deadline to a Western Conference team for the best return possible. A mistake would be made to give him term of anything more than 3 years.

    • George O why do you care if it’s west or east? He’s a ufa take the best return regardless of team.

      • Why do you care what a “keyboard warrior” likes?

      • But if you must know, it’s quite simple: there are approximately 8 teams in the west all scrambling for the 2 wild card spots, while in the East the 2 teams currently occupying the Wild Card slots are not threatened by anyone.

        Stands to reason that the more teams that might want to bulk up with a big versatile F the better the offer –

      • Paul would make a great Bruin. Paul for DeBrusk!
        Then resign Paul.
        Gain a little space for a D add as well.
        Wonder if OTT will let teams talk to him/agent if they decide to move on?

        You can play Paul anywhere in your middle 6.

      • Oh, I’m sure if, by trade deadline Ray, Paul and his agent are digging in their heels for either more $ or more term (or both) than Dorion is willing to relinquish given future negotiations with the likes of Pinto, Stutzle, Sanderson and Zub, he will allow teams to lay out what they’d have in store if a trade went down.

        What we have to keep in mind is, there will be two kinds of interest – those prepared to offer him a new contract that comes closer – or meets – whatever he and agent are seeking, and those looking at him as a pure rental for the playoff push.

        And with so many teams out west still in a legitimate hunt for a playoff spot compared to the east, that’s why I say send him west. If the interest is widespread enough – through either scenario just described – to up the returns, all the better.

        To Boston for DeBrusk would depend on how the Bruins see Paul in the long run and whether they too would be willing to come close to – or match – what he and his agent think he’s worth in $ and term.

      • Ya, all depends on how much he wants for how long.
        I like him as a player and think he will look even better come playoff time.

        Goodrow type guy IMO.

        I think he can play C as well? Seem to remember him taking draws against BOS

      • Oh yeah, he can play C – and is pretty good on faceoffs – but as I say elsewhere, his best production comes from playing LW – and he’s not shy about going into the dirty areas to dig for pucks and feed the slot area – Goodrow a good comparison

    • Looks like its 50-50 with the Avs & Panthers where Claude Giroux ends up❓

      A Pick and a Very Good Prospect or Two i think the Prospect’s could be the Main Key over the pick’s
      that both teams curently have left to trade with whether its 1st or 2nd or 3rd picks

      Avs have, number of posibilitys
      Bowen Byram, Samuel Girarad, Foudy, Jean-Luc,
      Olausson, Oskar & a 1st pick in 2023 or 2x3rd picks in 2022 &3

      The Panthers also have a number of Prospects possibility’s
      G, Mack Guzda, F Grigori Denisenko, D Max Gildon,
      D Ludvig, John
      a 1st pick left in 2024 and a 2nd in 2023

      • Girard + 2023 1st + 2024 4th for Giroux and Seeler or Connauton, both at half salary.

      • My boy says the Panthers travel person is at the Wells Fargo tonight. If true sounds like its the Panthers.

        Class move by Philly to not move Giroux before game 1000 in a Flyers jerseyl

    • George O i found the statement interesting. Maybe the best offer comes from Boston who could use his size.

      I long moved on from our debate, don’t take it personal.

      • @ George O

        What would you say that Nick Paul’s trade value is?

        Do you think the player simply wants a change of scenery? Is he buried down the line-up and think he’s more than a 4th line player?

        I’m asking because if he’s worth a 4th-5th round pick wouldn’t it be better for OTT to re-sign him than trade him for a lottery ticket? With a slight raise from $1.35M would 3@$1.5M get it done?

        If he gets traded to a contending team would it be for depth only or could he take somebody’s spot?

      • Daryl, I seriously doubt 3 years at $1.5 per gets it done. I do think Dorion is holding form to 3 years, but I’d be willing to bet he’s offered something closer to the $2.75 per range. Since he turns 27 in 3 days, I think he and his agent are likely looking for a bit more security in the 5-year range and could sign a $2.75 with that term.

        He is versatile at all 3 F positions, although LW seems to be his strength, but as I describe above with future RFA contract negotiations – not to mention Norris, Formenton, Brannstrom and Mete this year, and in 2 years the UFAs they’d probably want to re-sign – Connor Brown and Zub – Dorion has to be careful with role players.

        Whether he finishes out this season elsewhere as a depth addition or takes someone’s spot depends on who goes hardest after him. I don’t think a 4th round pick gets him – if it comes down to that I think Dorion hangs onto him and continues to negotiate right up to – and throughout – his UFA dickering.

    • How bout exchange for a 6’5 winger that goes to the corners?
      His name in Engvall.

      (Pssst,…I never said he battles super hard for the puck or is a scrapper lol) but,…. if it came with a lucky Saint Patricks Day draft pick and prospect, maybe an exchange could be made?

      Engvall, Duszak, 2023 7th

      How can you refuse the lucky 7 on Saint Patty’s day?

      • @DJ

        While Engvall isn’t a very physical player for his size his advanced stats are better than Nick Paul’s. Engvall is also a RFA whereas Paul is a UFA.

        I don’t think Toronto would trade one for one let alone add two other assets.

  3. Per Sportsnet (Luke Fox):

    The Maple Leafs have the Richard, Selke and Hart Trophy winner. The 2nd coming of Bobby Orr Norris candidate on defence. and a All Star and Vezina candidate in goal.

    Why the need for any upgrade?

    • Hilarious !!!

    • Forgot to mention the Leafs also have the Calder Trophy favorite on their roster.

      Even less need for an “upgrade”.


    • That is awesome…how does Luke Fox type with his blue and white pom-poms on??? I hope he has enough respect for himself to never show up at any gatherings of Sports Writers. He is a paid propagandist and no more, and embarrasses himself every time he publishes.

      • Foxs’ homerism is ridiculous. Reading anything written by him is just like watching LeafsNet or the Toronto Sports Network.

        The Leaf ballwashing is beyond ridiculous. Even if the Leafs were 5 time defending Champs it would be over the top.

        Combine the “panels” Leaf bias with the endless barrage of wokeism from MaClean and Friedman makes pregame, postgame and between periods literally unwatchable.

        Very seldom, if ever does TSN or Leafsnet ever hold Keefe, Dubas or Shanahan accountable for each springs epic collapse.

        If it wasnt so laughable it would be sad. lol.

      • Ron you watch Leafs games and not a fan? Wow!
        Your comments do make you sound a bit jealous or something. Next time, take a deep breath, think really hard about what needs to be said, and then just walk away. Try that.

      • Mr Moore,

        Thank you so much for your well thought out verbiage. As always very in depth and provocative.

        Your venom is always welcomed.

        Do enjoy your evening.

  4. I wouldn’t trade Dvorak at this time. At least let’s see what he could do for a full season under the new coach. They will need a solid veteran #2 Center to support Suzuki.

  5. Don’t think Byram is going anywhere.
    4 th overall pick and a young defence-man with superstar potential. Not for a rental that is for sure

    I believe Owen Tippet could be had from Florida . What little I have seen I like . Big fast shot first rounder. Tough lineup to crack

    We may all be disappointed on Monday with the deals going on this week

    Giordano to the Leafs is my prediction

    • Silver,

      I could be wrong on this but doesnt Byram have a history of concussion issues? Might be a risky add if so.

      • Exactly right, Ron. He’s had 3 and this blurb from a site sums it up well

        “Byram suffered a concussion in mid-November 2021 after already missing considerable time in during the 2020-21 season due to a concussion. After roughly two weeks, Byram came back to the team and played two games, but then remained out of the lineup for another month with symptoms.”

    • @SilverSeven

      Giordano would be a nice addition to the Leafs. I think Soucy (SEA) or Severson (NJ), Mayfield (NYI) might be better choices as they’re signed for another year.

      The question is what’s the ask for Giordano?

      It’s believed a 1st round pick is a must. If you’re giving up a first a player with term would be better than a rental. However…at Giordano’s advanced age and the fact he’s from Ontario I wonder if he’d re-sign here as a UFA to finish his career?

    • I agree Silver Seven, do not think the Avalanche would trade Byram at least I hope not. If he can get past concussion issues, he’s going to be very good, already is. I don’t think the Avalanche would want to part with his potential. More likely could be Justin Barron in the AHL who has good potential as well as a solid NHL defenseman. I would say, IMHO, it would be Barron, Compher, Kaut and a 3rd rounder for Giroux/Sanheim If the Flyers don’t take that , I wouldn’t make the deal. I think that’s fair. Probably, Sanheim is wishful thinking on my part but I have seen reports that the Flyers might be open to moving him?

  6. Tonight will be a real test for Kallgren (aka Vachon), playing Carolina
    Tavares played really well , with Matthews out ..
    Need a repeat performance
    The Russian Bear looks “ok” with Reilly

    • Ken, if the kid stands all and the Leafs win, ride it for all it’s worth – even if Campbell comes back.

  7. 6 teams looking for LD help cap space; Rangers with $31m can bring anyone they want plus their brother.

    Cap space

    Bos $5.2, LA $3.8 , Tor $3.7 Car $1.8 St.L $113,000

    Car $4m ltir, LA $6.15 ltir, Tor $5.625 ltir

    some financial gymnastics needed to acquire players

    • re “can bring anyone they want plus their brother.”…..

      Eric and Marc? LOL 🙂

    • why can’t the Rangers take bad contracts that are uvas for draft picks since they have 31 million cap space at the deadline

  8. The other day someone here said, three quarters through the season you should know if your team is good. Why try and overhaul your roster at this point. I’m starting to agree with that. How many trade deadline deals have worked out. A 1st, 4th and prospect for Chairot?? I guess time will tell. A lot of picks and prospects will get traded, only one team that’s healthy, a hot goalie and some luck will win the cup.

    • I suppose it depends how you measure success Yes guy, it will only work out for 1 team every year if winning the cup is the goal. If it is to make a long run and get some playoff $$, quite a few. That matters to teams more than the fans, but it does matter.
      TB added each of the last 2 years.
      St Louis a small add the year before.
      WASH, even smaller add the year before that, so don’t need to go big to win.

      I think, to your point, that is why many GM’s won’t trade a first for pending UFA’s as the trade helps them past this season. TDL deals have helped my B’s lately, as they have kept guys like Hall, Coyle and Lazar and it didn’t cost them very much. Sweeney won those trades big time.

  9. Congrats habs fans. Got your 1st for chariot. Didn’t think you could do it

    • Nice.

  10. As a Pens fan I’m not worried about the Flyers one bit as long as Chuck Fletcher is making the decisions.

    • Ed,

      With good reason.

  11. To All here

    Happy St. Patty’s Day

    • Paddy’s day ye goat.

      • Yeah, who the heck is “Patty?”

      • Hi George—

        “Patty” to all of us and our Irish relatives.

        They would cringe at using “Paddy”

        Me “mam” , who is born in Dublin…. is always bothered by anybody who says Happy St. “Paddy’s” day… so I guess it was entrenched in us.

        She texted at 7 this morning (that is uber early as she is in her 90’s)— “Happy St. Patty’s Day… you better be wearing green today” — LOL

        Our offices are all decked out in Green today


      • Well to this Irishman and his family with deep Irish roots (from County Cork) Paddy comes from Pádraig which is how St. Patrick was always referred to in Ireland.

        Erin go bragh

      • It is definitely not Patty. I too have deep roots. Most of my family didn’t make the trip across the pond.

        “Patty” is the broken down American/English term.

      • Hi George

        can’t argue with what is used in Cork now— Mrs. Pengy’s Nan was from Cork and she also refused to say St. Paddy’s; she’d give you the stink eye if you did…. but she passed 4 decades ago.

        All my Irish relatives (Dublin and surrounds) use St. “Patty’s”…. just checked my emails…. all of them (more than a dozen from this morning— and late last night— LOL) sent out “Happy St. Patty’s Day”… not a St. Paddy’s among them.

        What we can agree on…. today should be Green— LOL

        Happy “Green” day???

      • As the name “Patty” is the shortened version of the feminine name Patricia, the term “St. Patty’s Day” is downright incorrect. The term has been deemed disrespectful by the Irish community. The correct abbreviation for Patrick is “Paddy.”

      • All of you are wrong

        It’s st. Padtys day.


      • I need a Jameson.

      • Pengy, did your Nan speak Irish? My grandparents could and it was always “Paddy” to my ears

      • Hi George

        My Gradfather was fluent in Gaelic as was Mrs. Pengy’s Nan. I am not so sure re my nan…. Died before I was born. My mom can understand it so I’m guessing likely that Nan could speak it. Too late to wake my mom and ask her

        After your messages above I reached out to my relatives….. they are adamant that you don’t EVER use St.Paddy…. Now they are from Dublin and surrounds.

        I had Mrs. Pengy reach out to her side (many from Cork and surrounds)

        Only one responded so far…. He says …. “It’s St. Patty’s…. Don’t be fooled by any who tells you differently cous they caint drink worth an arses fart”

        From the time stamp on the email he must have been responding from the pub or just home from it

        Had to laugh at that…. never heard of drinking worth an arses fart… who judges that contest?

        I called my best friends Dad…. who was born and raised in Cork. He travels back every year. He says it’s St. Patty’s. He is also fluent in Gaelic.

        Either way…I’m proud to be of Irish decent as are our entire fam

      • Lmao,

        Talk about taking an internet argument to extremes! So you took the time to call every relative on a work day to settle the argument? Sounds like total bs in my book.

        And again, it’s the feminine version of “Patricia”. It sounds like these “relatives” don’t know their “arse” from a hole in the ground.

  12. Standing on a corner watching all the trades
    go by
    Standing on a corner watching all the trades go by
    Brother you don’t know a nicer occupation
    Matter of fact, neither do I
    Than standing on a corner watching all the trades
    Watching all the trades, watching all the Trades go by
    I’m the cat that got the cream
    we Haven’t got a trade but I can dream
    Haven’t got a trade yet but I can wish
    So I’ll take me down to my computer tablet
    And that’s where I check the latest
    Standing on a corner watching all the trades go by
    Standing on a corner giving all the trades yadah yadah

    • All 3 trades? How did Boston not be involve in all 3 trades?

      • Bruins don’t need to do zip they will but don’t need to one of top teams playing right now.

      • Sweeney called RWM. But his mom would not let him on the phone till he finished his homework

    • Early in the evening, just before supper time.
      Muzzins LTIR money
      becomes most valuable this time
      He will be sitting out
      and all that cash comes into play
      Leafs will be going All in Now
      Draft picks will float away…

      Right around the corner
      Leaffans will be in heat
      Planning the party and the big parade
      Starting off on Young Street.

      Dubas has his work cut out
      But his back is against the wall
      He needs to find some Big D men
      who clear creases and do it all
      He even needs a goalie
      and he needs to trade one too
      We both know what dumps he has to make
      so he/we don’t stink like pooh

      Right around the corner
      Trades will make their way
      Irish all those thing will happen
      and occur on this Saint Patricks Day!!


    • Forgot to say thanks for the insperation Rick! That was awesome!! *tips hat

    • Now you’re dating yourself Rick if you remember The Four Lads!

  13. If Rangers are in the market for a LD rental, I’d hope that they’re also making ching Nemeth.
    I’ve mentioned Dvorak before as a Strome replacement. Montreal gave up a 1st and 4th. Would they want same return or could Gorton want some prospects he drafted? Looking at Dvoraks career stats, he’s a act LT same career point total that Strome had before playing for a NYR. Difference being that Dvorak has played less games than Strome had at time, yet has more goals. Strome turned 26 in summer following his trade. Dvorak turned 26 last month. Id much rather go forward with the younger player with a 4.4m cap hit for next 3 seasons than the soon to be 29 year old who’s most likely going to want more money and term. I’d say Strome peaked last season while Dvoraks ceiling hasn’t been hit yet.

    • I’m not sure NY should pursue Dvorak, definitely not if Gortons ask is a 1st plus.

      I wouldn’t expect the same results NY has had with Strome. For whatever reason Strome just worked out. I wouldn’t have the same expectations for Dvorak.

      I hope Drury is at least checking in on Scheifele, Larkin and Miller, if not now in the off-season. Or I’d target a guy like Jack Mcbain, who probably would cost a couple of 2nds or possibly a 1st.

  14. Still surprised that Cats are even mentioned re Giroux.

    Cats can score— no question… so why give up more assets, and have to make room; just to acquire more offence

    Not saying it won’t happen; just strange to think they would be looking that still

    Already good add at D

    To me, their only possible “void” or “risk” area , other than reasonable depth adds (which all contenders would like) is a possible back-up. If Bobo goes down or falters…. things could fall apart very quickly… not sure the youngster is ready and can take the reins and run with it through the playoffs

    Very good team as it is right now

    I’d think Avs are at the top of the “pursuers” list for Giroux; I would not discount Rangers or Bruins making calls. Leafs should not be in on him.

    Re — teams looking for an LD….. I still go with my bromance …. Soucy… still under contract one more year… very good Cap hit

  15. Pengy. I’m not too sure Philly would trade Giroux to Rangers. And I’m not sure NY would get in a bidding war for a rental. Even Miller is only good for another year. Not sure I’d want them to give up the haul it would take. Would love Schiefele but I don’t think he’s getting moved until off season.

    • no big argument there Slick; makes sense

      If there is only one “true” bidder on Giroux (Avs) …. does that crimp realistic return?

      I’m assuming big celebration for his 1,000th game?

      What I can guarantee— he isn’t coming cross-state to the Pens for the play-off run

    • Slow Giroux is not what the Rangers need
      Two way speedy winger opposite of Panarin is still the need

      • It needs to be someone who can finish. Or we’ll see 3 forwards passing the puck an awful lot.

        Which also takes Kessel out, unless he goes bottom 6.

  16. Bruins … LD & RD plus N Deslauriers

  17. Addition by subtraction. Fire Dubas.

    What has he actually done?
    Lucked out winning AM.
    Signed JT to a horrible cap hit.
    Cannot build D or find a goalie for the life if him.
    Doesn’t draft goalies prefers soft players.

    Without the money the Leafs can throw around he’d not be a GM.

    • @ Gordie

      Don’t forget that Tavares had other teams lined up to pay him more.
      Was he a necessary signing? Likely not. Kadri was doing a fine job at #2C on a very reasonable contract.

      He signed Rielly to a contract below market value. Signed Brodie as a UFA. Traded for Muzzin. Traded for Lyubushkin. He’s addressed the defence.

      He was smart enough to not overpay Hyman and his replacement Bunting is doing very well for under $1M.

      If the cap didn’t stay flat for 2-3 years the Leafs would likely have more money to spend on D and conversations like this don’t happen.